Lovelyish

This makes me sick. I sincerely have no respect left for this man. 

Religious dominionism is just wrong. I *hate* it when people feel it’s okay to use religion as an excuse for policies or intolerance—-especially on the rights of women everywhere. Rick Sanatorium is just another man who thinks he understands the feelings of women.

What a vile man. 

Your characterization of Catholic beliefs on the sanctity of life are what is harsh.

As tragic as rape truly is, murdering the unborn is a cruel, immoral response to it. Rape does not justify murdering someone who is totally innocent.

The quote was taken from thinkprogress?  Take a look at the video on that site.  You get a different impression of him than the sensational headline.

These people just get crazier and crazier. 

rape is an unfortunate thing but killing the child seems a little too far the child is innocent if u dont want it there is always adoption plus if u get an abortion because u were raped is like blameing the child for something that happened before it was even conceived.

I am Catholic, although I guess not strictly so, because THE STATE SHOULD BE SECULAR. SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR. Far be it for me to doom desperate women everywhere to have highly unsafe abortions in the streets because my religion thinks it’s wrong. 

Sometimes, no matter how much I want to convince people otherwise, babies are just not a gift. Sometimes it would be too much. No matter how much I believe abortion is wrong, I’m not going to subject people to my belief and force them back to glass bottles and “falling down stairs.”

What a f***ing nut.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I am Catholic myself, and believe in being pro-life for myself. The government should have no right in imposing our morals/beliefs on anyone else. The government should be separated from the Church and state. Like I mentioned, religious dominionism is just wrong. Rick Sanatorium also converts to whatever religious domination will win him the votes of others. I would not call him Catholic in anyway. He does it just for appearances. 

Make the best of the situation? If the situation were reversed, I’d love to see him justify that bullshit. I may get flack but I’m gonna say it anyway: even if you dont like Obama, he may win again even if it’s out of default because the GOP people running are hated by their own party, have disgusting views on things & they’re eliminating 3 crucial groups of voters: Women, People of color & the Gay community. In times like these, people will pick what they feel is the lesser of two evils (ie: sticking with what they have because the other choice is worse).

I had that belief when I was raped over a decade ago.  It has been working fairly well for me.  The problem I have is that he was stupid enough to say it because it obviously does not work for everyone.

Well stated. There is no “making the best of it” Yes, it does *further* victimize the woman. Yes, it does take the choice away from her. I cannot imagine having to give birth to a child that every day will remind me of the most tragic event of my life, and will also look just like the one who did it to me. *shiver* That would be  torture.

@feelslikejuly@xanga - It is the Church that defines its doctrines, not you or I. Rick Santorum is a devout Catholic. That is an undisputed fact.  He has a long history of religious practice and South Carolinians were at Mass with him last Sunday. He and his family attended as regular Americans with no fanfare.

There was a time when most people in America held that life was sacred.

Nevertheless, what is truly callous is killing an unborn child and using rape as justification. Using any crime to justify murder is immoral.

I can’t believe that so many people think that protecting the life of an innocent human being is callous and murdering it is a show of compassion.

Murder in no way ameliorates rape or its consequences. And rejecting murder as the solution to the consequences of rape is both moral and compassionate.

How does he get away with using religion as part of his argument??? Religion doesn’t even count! Religion was always excluded from debates when I was in school…
Even if abortion became illegal people would still get them underground in a more dangerous way.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Au contraire, people like me think about all those affected, not just the unborn. Many of us also believe the Church has no right in dictating the government law. This goes for the rights of women and LGBTs. 

Put yourself into the shoes of a lady who was raped. Tell her she has no choice but to carry the child who was a product of rape. Tell this woman she must live with the psychological consequences of the rape. Tell this child at some point in his/her life that they were raped. The child can either be thankful he or she is alive or hate their very existence. What if the person who raped the woman wants the right to see this child? Depending on the woman’s belief, she hopefully will still have the right to chose what happens to the pregnancy so hypothetical outcomes can’t occur. 

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - So it’s better to torture a woman for 9 months with the DAILY reminder of what happened to her?? Every kick, every vitamin, even mention of a child is a reminder of the rape.

How is it any persons decision other than the womans?

I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.

…….I don’t like this guy. He should just drop out, for fuck’s sake.

It’s my body, last time I checked. I’d like to have options as to what to do with my body. Him taking all but the “godly” option away does not help me or other women who think like I do at all.

@andreaaaaah - Murder is not a solution to suffering. And neither is morality. The purpose of morality is to give man the understanding of right and wrong.

Relief from suffering is truly a natural and good cause. But not if it means murdering an innocent person.

What is really reprehensible about this post is that Rick Santorum is being demonized for being true to Catholic moral teachings.

@Hinase@xanga - You can be my VP on Jupiter. (:

@TheTheologiansCafe@xanga - I’ve gotten enough of a feeling from him by watching the debates and interviews. He’s not a bad person but he has no business taking his religious doctrine into my secular government. 

@feelslikejuly@xanga - Your beliefs are your personal business and you shouldn’t be demonized for having them.

Rick Santorum is a mainstream Catholic who believes in the sanctity of life. His beliefs are clear and good. It is unjust to demonize him for his beliefs.

I like Rick Santorum and will vote for him if I have a chance. That doesn’t mean I hate women and gays or that I condone the suffering of raped women.

people need to calm down and try to look at things from a broader angle.  nobody is against abortion because they hate women and want to take all their rights away from them.  okay, maybe there are people out there like that, but they’re not common.  the reason people are pro-life is for the child’s sake.  in the case of rape, some people believe the unborn child should not have to pay with their life for the crimes of the rapist.  the child did nothing wrong.  they also believe that the child’s right to live takes precedence over the mother’s mental and emotional damage.  they don’t deny the woman’s anguish by any means.  they just don’t believe the answer is to add another victim to the list by taking the child’s life.

that said, i still don’t agree with his views on abortion.  and he needs to be a lot more careful about phrasing his thoughts on such sensitive matters.  but i don’t think he’s a monster for holding such views.

well, there’s a reason why Dan Savage changed the definition of “santorum.”

What people need to understand, is that the president does not hold complete power. That’s what Congress and the Supreme Court are for.  Bills need to pass Congress before the even reach the president.  Instead of choosing a candidate based on their beliefs on one topic, they should analyze the positions on everything as a whole. Congress holds more a voice of the people.  If you don’t like the way things are, get out there and vote for the candidates you want representing you.

Personally, I am pro-life.  However, I wouldn’t not vote for a pro-choice candidate.  There is so much more to base the decision on than one topic.

No matter what, people will always disagree on public policies and laws. There will always be debates.  In most areas, there will be divisons which is what creates the divide a lot of the time between Democrats and Republicans.  I really try not to get involved in political debates (as in, I keep my opinions to myself) because everyone is so stubborn and unwilling to see the other sides view. People can say what they want which is great. But people need to understand that in a democracy, majority wins. Sorry.

“Not everybody practices the same religion, you get to choose what you
believe. that is part of the beauty if our country; the ability to
choose.”

Exactly. Santorum has no business running for president because every single one of his social views are blatantly based in and justified solely by his religion. THIS IS A SECULAR FUCKING COUNTRY. KEEP YOUR RELIGION OUT OF MY GOVERNMENT.

I’m not sure that all these stupid, unempathetic men understand what kind of trauma a rape victim would likely endure through a pregnancy. Can you even begin to imagine growing a parasitic human inside of you that was put there against your will? It’s like reliving the violation over and over again, on top of the discomfort and pain that is already existent in most pregnancies. There is no question what kind of mental problems would ensue, and I would imagine that many if not most of the victims would go through seriously lethal means to get rid of it. I’d probably kill myself. i’m not saying that to be romantic or bold; to endure that amount of agony is absolutely and simply beyond my comprehension. You can all go fuck yourselves. **That said, I do not condone a pregnancy being terminated after the point of viability. Once the fetus is capable of feeling pain, it is simply a moral issue. Before that point, it is philosophical to argue over the”rights” of the fetus and purely moral to argue over the rights of the woman in this scenerio.

He is a bigot and I don’t like him. If he becomes our president I will be extremely angry.

@DrummingMediocrity@xanga - Okay, I’ll do that ;D 

@Love_never_fails - Of course we do understand that but the fact is-he’ll try to pass measures based on his beliefs. I believe all presidents have done this and will always do this. The problem for me is-I don’t like any candidate on any platform or on the whole of their topics. I feel like nothing represents me at all, so I can’t really vote for anyone.

Of course people will always disagree on public polices etc; that is just how it is…but it really feels like they serve their party rather than the people, when the presidents or even politicians should serve the people. I think that’s really the gist of the job description for presidents, at least here. 

And that’s true, this is a democracy and there is a reason why it’s so wonderful. I guess we judge president candidates because we want to make sure they are up to the job of serving rather than serving themselves or their party, because I do know leaders do have to put aside their own personal feelings or whatever for the good of the people and the nation honestly. 

I don’t know. I don’t like getting involved either but I don’t like closed minded people like Mr. Santorum. 

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I respect your opinion and can even understand the logic behind it. However, personally, I think it’s more cruel to force a rape victim to give birth to a child that was conceived under such an awful situation. You’re telling her that she had to experience a tragedy, and instead of entirely focusing on recovery, she has to be burdened with the result for another 9 months and she has no say in the matter. Can you imagine how trapped she might feel facing that reality? If it were me, I’m not sure I’d be able to continue living. I get that people are just trying to look out for an innocent child’s life, but in doing that, we’ve forgotten about the rape victim and are disregarding her feelings. It’s easy to say she should just “make the best of things” when we’re observers, it’s a lot harder to do when you’re the one experiencing it.

I think that it is hard for a man to truly understand how devastating rape can be.  Though I can understand some women’s desire to terminate a pregnancy that results from a rape, I hold the belief that life is sacred, and that children are a wonderful gift.  However, I could not deny another woman the right to choose what she deems best for her.  

@xiaosnowtenshi@xanga - Murder of the unborn child is not a solution to the problem of rape and its consequences.

You folks are trying to solve a problem that has no solution, using immoral means.

If suffering justifies murder in the case of rape, then murder is justified in any case where it will alleviate the suffering of anyone.

Once that is allowed, then all human life becomes worthless and Western Civilization returns to the barbarity that characterizes all other civilizations at all times in human history.

Only in the West has human life been held sacred. And that is because of the teachings of the Catholic Church. And those are the teachings professed by Rick Santorum.

You can’t legislate religion.  End of fucking story.

Maybe someone should rape Santorum and tell him to make the best of it.

Sometimes I think this guy just says shit to see how many people he can rile up. How can anyone believe his garbage?

This quote was taken so far out of context, it’s not even funny. 

@Xbeautifully_broken_downX@xanga - You win. 

@feelslikejuly@xanga - Thank you! Glad you liked what I had to say! <3

1. I am pro-choice because, unlike Mr. Santorum, I do believe that the government should NOT have a say in what I can or cannot do with my body. 

2. I believe in the sanctity of life. I believe that a fetus IS a life.

3. With that being said, I do believe that there are worse things than abortion for a baby. I worked in social services and I have seen kids that are abused, thrown away, and hurt everyday that they are alive. And the people who, most of the time, preach about the “sanctity” of life are ALSO the people that generally don’t believe they should have to pay taxes to support social/welfare programs to help those kinds of children NOR do they adopt or look after those children.
So they fight for them while they are fetuses…and then, when they are in the world, they abandon them and have no kind of idea about what they can do to make their life better.

Ever spoken with a mom that was RAPED and had the kid? I have. 
Ever had to pick a child up and take them away from their mother because she said she wanted to kill her own child because she saw the face of her rapist in the child? I have. 
Ever had to talk to a kid that found out he/she was literally the act of power from their own biological father? I have.

So, before any of you get righteous about your own POV…think of the kid….the impact of this decision…and if you truly believe in the sanctity of life, then stop preach and start doing something about it. 

If the man could get pregnant, do you think his views would still be the same?

He’s a moron. That’s what I think.

Everyone seems to be treating this as a religious issue, when really it’s not. To be pro-life is to believe that life begins at conception and the right to birth outweighs a woman’s right to separate herself from the unborn. Agree with it or not (for the record, I don’t), it isn’t legislating religion, and his perception of the world hardly makes him a disgusting person.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Dude, it doesn’t matter what you believe. The fucking point is that religion has NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT. Religion of ANY kind.

@MoonFaeEyryan@xanga - I didn’t claim that religion belongs in government. That claim is the falsehood used to demonize Rick Santorum.

He is a former US Senator and never, ever tried to turn American government into a theocracy. 

I’m an atheist and the only time I think abortion is even close to being OK would be if it was incest rape. 

What a fucking prick.

People are entitled to their own religion. But forcing it on others, especially with complete and utter disregard to feelings of both mother and child is ridiculous.

@Xbeautifully_broken_downX@xanga - <3

If men could get pregnant, he’d be singing a different tune.

Not harsh, just ignorant to the concept of abortion because of his religious beliefs.

Because of Santorum’s dedication to religion there is no other way he can separate his life and his religion. They are one in one. Very religious people cannot understand the separation of church and state because of their own experiences with the inseparable bond between their life and religion.
I don’t agree with him, but I don’t think he’s a bad man, just ignorant.
And I don’t want my president to be ignorant.

@xiaosnowtenshi@xanga - Why couldn’t giving life to a another human being–being a life-giver and care-giver to someone innocent–somehow be a therapeutic thing in and of itself? I don’t see how the  child itself could cause emotional harm to the woman–but I do see how terminating an innocent life could. Also, I think this is a situation in which it would be totally acceptable to give the child up for adoption, so that way the child wouldn’t have to know his/her father was a rapist.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - what if I don’t beleive that it has a life yet?  What defines a life?  Living organisms undergometabolism, maintainhomeostasis, possess a capacity togrow, respond tostimuli,reproduceand, throughnatural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations. (wikipedia)   But we have to dcide what lives are worthy.  Which lives we keep.  We kill ants and weeds without even thinking about it, and they are much more then a few cells being carried around inside you.  So where does that change?  Is it because those cells inside you have the potential to become human?  Potential.  It isn’t a full human yet.  Every egg has the potential to mate with a sperm and become a human.  Is wearing a condom death in the same way?  Is not having sex if you are in heat death the same way?  

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I don’t think it’s the solution either, but I don’t think your solution is right..because really, who are we to force our beliefs on people who are already suffering? We only have compassion for them when they choose to do what we deem is right, and we condemn them when they choose differently. We are not God. We are mere humans deciding another human’s fate based solely on what one, of many, religion says. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a big reason why many English decided to come to America in the first place? To be able to practice their own religion and what their religion tells them? So why are people who believe differently being shunned? This could never happen in real life, but let’s say that the US was predominately atheist/agnostic, and not Christian like it is. I’m assuming you’re a man based on your profile picture, and pardon me if I’m wrong, but let’s say you are a woman who was just raped. Then let’s say that, for some odd reason, abortion was mandatory in the event of rape because majority consensus says that IS the right solution…but you don’t agree. Think about how that would make you feel; after you were forced into sex, you were then forced into a decision about what to do with the baby. I hear every day about how America is the greatest country because we have more freedom than anyone else. But here we are, denying women the right to decide what to do with their own mental well being? Does that not feel wrong to you in the least? I’m not saying one or the either is better…but I don’t feel it’s right for the government to mandate sacrificing one for the other. THAT, to me, feels barbaric; it reminds me of a time when women didn’t have any rights, and a man could dictate what she did with a pregnancy. How is sacrificing the rape victim for the well being of an unborn child any different than sacrificing said child for the well being of the victim? There is not right solution for the government to choose, and that is why it should be left up to the rape victim after careful consideration. Not to mention the moment you make abortion illegal across the board, people WILL find unsafe ways to do it. 

I also don’t agree that only in West do we consider human lives important; that is a very ignorant comment. Have you traveled everywhere, talked to everyone? If you haven’t, what right do you have to say that nobody else thinks the same way? I personally know people who value human life, and they don’t live in the West. I don’t want to turn this into an ugly argument, so I’ll thank you not to insult my relatives who live in the East and imply that they are barbarians. 

@xiaosnowtenshi@xanga - Your argument is an argument against all law, since law imposes beliefs on people by its very nature.

Most societies hold that murder is one of the most grievous of crimes. And all law forces people to either act or not act in certain ways.

It is further error mixing the quest for religious freedom with the natural imposition of values through the law.

The people who first came to America did so to further the Kingdom of God. They said that in their founding documents. Christians have incorporated their values into the laws of the land. Namely that murder is wrong under any circumstances.

I don’t see anything wrong with saying that someone who is raped should make the best out of the situation. What else would you tell someone who is raped, “Your life is over and you should just give up all hope and die!”?

@Jenny_Wren@xanga - I didn’t say it couldn’t be, I’m saying that not everyone will think of it that way. If allowed to make the decision by myself, I may come to think that. Under pressure and forced to make that decision by people who don’t even know me, there is no way in hell I would think of it like that.The reason why the child could harm their emotional health is because he or she could be a constant reminder of what happened throughout the pregnancy term. Ideally, people have children because they want to, not because it resulted from such a violent act. Of course, abortion is distressing as well, though again, how can outsiders determine which choice would be more harmful to that specific woman?

What you said is a problem; because we can’t fathom how another might feel differently, or because we think our opinion is right and theirs is wrong, we impose our views on them. But that doesn’t make what they feel any less real. Humans aren’t robots and we’re not all programmed to think the same way. Would you be happy if some random stranger, with no regard to your specific situation, suddenly swooped in, told you your thought is wrong, and to choose differently? How willing would you be to follow his orders? Me–I’d have a lot of issues with that.

@xiaosnowtenshi@xanga - It comes down to this–a person’s feelings, whether they are going through a traumatic period or going through something else, does not change that it is wrong to end an innocent life.

…I am not saying it wouldn’t be hard for the woman. But her feelings one way or the other do not set the bar for when it is okay to end life. Whether it is right or wrong to end a life..sets the bar.

@Xbeautifully_broken_downX@xanga - thank you…

@Jenny_Wren@xanga - no. it isn’t therapeutic. it’s hell.

something i’ve wondered for quite some time…

how can someone claim to be pro-life and yet condone war or the death penalty? aren’t these just more forms of murder?

@E_Rose_Moore - What I meant was–what is hell? Causing the death of another innocent–or protecting an innocent?

I do NOT doubt there would be mental anguish…and I wish that wasn’t so. I honestly am angry that any woman would ever have to experience such a thing as rape. But does killing an innocent give peace of mind in the long run? What if the woman turned around and said: “So, this unspeakable act happened to me. But this child did nothing wrong. I won’t take it out on him/her.”
I could see that being a big step, in a way, toward mental wellness.

He has the right to his opinion.  His extremely narrow, callous opinion.

Why is a rape baby considered a gift from God?  Did God command that the man force his wiener upon that unfortunate woman and knock her up?  I think not.  If there actually was some supernatural deity involved in a rape, my money would be on the devil.

So this guy…

Let’s say I get raped:

I have to live with the event.
Learn to trust again or deem myself asexual and stay alone for forever.
Carry a child that was NEVER MEANT TO BE BORN because I sure as hell don’t want one.
Spend nine months living a nightmare knowing this is some man’s child who decided to take advantage.
Birth said child. (Dear Kami)
Raise said child regardless if I have the financial means or not… none the less mental and emotional capabilities by this point.
OR put the child up for adoption which will end up with the kid trying to find me later and guess what…

I GET TO RELIVE THE NIGHTMARE ONCE MORE!

Sorry… I do what I want… and mentally/physically killing myself… is not worth it. Sorry that I have a form of self preservation. Allow me to have a child with the man I love when I FUCKING FEEL LIKE IT… no sooner… no later… end of story. What I do is my business.

@chell_kicks_08@xanga - It is possible to give a child up for adoption with the agreement that there will be no future contact allowed.

@Jenny_Wren@xanga - The thing is… that does not take away from anything. Depending on who it is… you could see children playing in a park and remember what happened. Either way… it should not be something someone has to go through.

@chell_kicks_08@xanga - Rape is something that should be punished…and it is something that no woman should ever have to go through. I feel anger for the woman who have to bear that burden. Please don’t think I make light of that..

But, the child is innocent. The rapist is the one who did something wrong. None of the situations should have happened–but the child should live, it’s not his/her fault. And the mother should not be expected to raise the child, at least I don’t think so. But give him/her to a family who would bring them up without their ever having to know about the rape. That seems the merciful thing to do.

“to never have been born may be the greatest boon of all” – sophocles

it is so easy for men to sit there dictating from their high moral horses, when they never have to contemplate the reality of being raped and a pregnancy occurring. 
 
if i had been the result of rape, then i would not have a problem w/ my mom aborting me before i was born.  i would never want my mom to have to go thru the anguish of having to give birth to her rapist’s child, simply because i selfishly want my own brief time on this planet.  better to have never existed at all.

@pisces1982@xanga - The thing is, who are *we* to deny life of an innocent? That takes a “moral high horse” unlike any other.

You are absoloutely right with your argument about religion, that just isn’t a good fundament to base any arguments for LAWS on. I still want to go into it because the question of how we should value life and when it starts concerns us all.
 We are able to save smaller and smaller babies, so is it ok to just …not save them? Even as a mother? Is it ok to let a baby drown, because, say, it is Osama bin Ladens baby?
 A baby that is already born naturally is also 100% dependant on other people. Ok it can breathe, but on its own it’s going to starve. And we can remember our birth and the weeks after about as much as being in the womb as an embryo. So it is hard to say when life starts.

Personally, when I think of getting pregnat just like that I would not abort a baby. I was an accident myself and nearly aborted so maybe that makes me sort of sensitive.
I cannot really imagine what it’s like to get raped though, and he can probabaly even less. I thinkthat personally I would not abort the baby. I think that we don’t have “traits of evilness”, at best traits of impulsivenes and lack of understanding but that alone does not make anyone a bad dangerous person, so the baby/fetus is innocent. ( I would maybe not keep it, because I wouldn’t want to be reminded of the humilation every day.  )
However it is not anything I would want to put upon other women just like that either, not knowing the pain.

Generally I’d say that politically I tend to treat abortion like many people treat drug use: I am not a fan of it, but what is the consequence if we forbid it? a terrible, greedy, uncontrollable black market making use of those who are feeling desperate. Not to mention that I don’t understand everyone on this world. The problem also could become a taboo because it is easy to stamp people who use drugs/have abortions as generally evil criminals, which I think is wrong in both cases, and maybe even increases the number of (then illegal) abortions.
On the other hand there is the life of the baby, and in the end it all comes down to two difficult questions: when life starts, and if the mothers life is in danger. That’s just extremely hard to balance out. I think if it is either her or the kid she should decide. I think in many countries the law is not enough on the side of the kid. For example in Germany or Australia it is allowed to kill the baby or a fetus ages after the regular timely deadline for abortions, because it’s disabled and thus might make the mother suffer. I think suffering alone doesn’t justify death, and that is to be said for the case of being raped too.  Idk. It seems harsh, but regarding that he evidently thinks life begins before birth, and this argument isn’t entirely stupid I think it is ok to talk about it, and to say this.
But in the end each mother has to answer the two questions for herself, and I think that the law should let her; better than putting both in danger in the end. Only she knows if a the fetus makes her suicidal, for example.
I also think women should built their opinion BEFORE getting in such a situation. What if you have to make a decision quickly, do it, and then decide for yourself that your baby has already been a human being that you killed?

Read somewhere that Rick Santorum’s wife had an abortion because her life was at risk. Interesting, hmm?

I suggest Mr. Santorum get raped and see if he can “make the best out of the situation”. I don’t care what your beliefs are, I don’t think you’re a moral person just because you keep the product of your rape. One, I don’t think a zygote or a fetus in early stages of development is a baby. That’s the reason abortions are not performed after a certain point in the development.

So, scenario here: Say i get raped and a pregnancy results from that. I’m still in high school. Not only do I have to deal with the trauma of being raped, but I must deal with the scrutiny of people thinking I’m some slut because I’m a pregnant teenager. Also, every waking moment is a reminder that I am carrying a child whose father raped me and took away my choice and my sense of emotional and physical security. Nine months later, the child is born. He or she grows up and wonders why they don’t have a father. I either have to tell the child his/her father is a rapist or I hold onto the secret for the rest of his/her life. Either way, the child grows up knowing something is wrong. If I tell him/her, the child probably won’t want to live anymore. What child would be grateful for living if they were the product of rape and the source of anguish for their poor mother? Not only would  I have to live with the every day reminder of my rape, but I wouldn’t even be able to properly provide for my child.

Also, having said child would ruin the rest of my life. Sound harsh? I plan to work my ass off to put myself through college and then medical school so that I can become a doctor and help people. No matter if I think a fetus is a baby, I think taking one life is worth me saving many more when I’m a doctor.

Food for thought.

Every child should be a wanted child.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - But what if people don’t see abortion as murder? I don’t think about it too much personally, because the “when does life begin?” debate is irrelevant to why I’m pro-choice. But murder is murder because you are killing what is separate and apart from you, violating that separate beings right to life. Until the child is born, it is not separated from its mother. While I personally couldn’t imagine having an abortion because I do think of it as a potential life (though not a separate life all in itself), I believe until it is a separate life, outside the woman, its right to life does not exist beyond its mother.

Let’s say I don’t agree with abortions, but I damn well will fight for a woman’s right to make that decision. If pro-life advocates want women to choose not to have an abortion, they need to provide these women some sort of contraceptive. I don’t know the exact position the Catholic church has on that these days, and I can see the aversion to the pill, but having someone wear a condom is 100x better than having someone get pregnant and have an abortion. Clearly telling them God will smite them if they have sex before marriage doesn’t work as well as one would like.

Pregnant women, poor pregnant women, young pregnant women, one’s who were raped, especially need support. If they are religious, then I guess you can go Santorum’s route. But I think providing them resources easily and giving them a safe place to go whatever their decision might be is better. Guilt isn’t going to help. All “guilt” does it annoy those who really don’t care in the first place or add more tragedy to those who made a hard, painful, maybe misguided choice. Abortion shouldn’t be the automatic answer, but it also shouldn’t be a source of shame.

Every woman deserves control over her body and what happens inside it. It is nothing but disgusting in my mind for anyone to tell someone what to do with their body. Parents and SO who force their pregnant daughter/girlfriend to have an abortion are just as disgusting in my mind as those who force them to give birth to a child they do not want.

@Digital_Angel21@xanga - Catholic teachings on the sanctity of life in womb come from the Bible. There are various verses that say explicitly that God knew us before we were knit in the womb.

America was founded by Christians. And Christian values were woven into our law and social fabric. We are a self governing republic so it is up to us as to what values we want informing our law.

All Christians can do is make the argument in the arena of ideas.

I have no words!  make the best of it?!  I hope him and anyone who sides with him can make the best of it when I shove a broomstick up their ass!  To spew such stupidity!  This makes me want to vomit!

@E_Rose_Moore - <3 <3 Of course.

Of course, there is intense debate going on here.

I just thought I’d pipe in with a useless random fact: [one of] his daughter[s] goes to my school… she’s actually in my politics class.

Okay, I’ll move along now.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Immoral to YOU. Not everyone agrees with you that abortion is immoral, and it is wrong of you to assert that everyone should accept that abortion is immoral, plain and simple. Not everyone agrees that it is murder. Not everyone agrees that an unborn child is a living thing with the same rights as you or me. I don’t like abortion, but I accept that not everyone feels the same way I do and that there are LOGICAL reasons for keeping abortion legal. 

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Also, wrong wrong and more wrong. America was NOT founded by Christians. Why do people think this!? I will never understand it.

our Founding Fathers did not write anywhere into the Constitution “this is a Christian nation”. Many were Deists, which essentially means they did not believe that the creator intervenes in human life. 
How about Article 6,Section 3 which reads “NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES”
How about the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, which states “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion….”
You desperately need to educate yourself about these things before you start spouting off your opinion.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Funny enough, more people murder in the name of God than anything else. The people who did the most wrongs in history were done so by people of the church. 

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga- Furthermore, how dare you basically call a woman that has just been violated and raped a murderer?

@In_Reason_I_Trust@xanga - LOL, I figured. I just wanted to put in my two sense.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - @UnconventionalButterfly@xanga - This person you’re replying to is the one previously known in these parts as Lobornlytesthoughtpalace. That site was shut down by the xanga team for violations of the terms of use. He was impersonating a public figure of the fitness world, Denise Paglia.

http://celestial-teapot.xanga.com/739127035/lobornlyte-is-a-man-and-i-can-prove-it/

Here’s a few more things to refresh your memory, or find out more about him:

http://in-reason-i-trust.xanga.com/photos/d8dad276607559/#filmstriptitle

http://in-reason-i-trust.xanga.com/photos/d0289275619814/#filmstriptitle

http://in-reason-i-trust.xanga.com/749223115/i-had-a-glimmer-of-hope/

@Jenny_Wren@xanga - If that is the way you feel then more power to you. I see where you are coming from but I do feel differently. For me personally I have my reasons why I would abort. My physical condition is not on par with most in terms of child birth. It is not worth my life no matter how innocent it may be (unfortunately even if it is my own (one I wanted) which is why I am waiting to see if my condition improves but the older I get the more danger I put myself in general). Personally I don’t think my family would take to kindly to me giving my life up to have some rapist’s child. So while I understand what you are getting at… there are some of us who have more unfortunate circumstances.

@feelslikejuly@xanga - Definitely agree.

I hated Santorum from the first time I heard him open his mouth (probably for different reasons than you though).  I say Santorum should be put in jail and get to experience prison rape – then when he tries to complain to the guards they can tell him to “make the best of it”.

As a victim of rape, I am STILL against abortion in any scenerio except for one in which the pregnancy will kill the mother. Although, I hate when people make ignorant statements such as “get over it” or “make the best out of it” (for anything, really, unless referring to something about themselves) I have to say that I actually agree with him on this. It’s not the child’s fault, and two wrong’s don’t make a right.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - What you say is true. But you just made a great argument for why Rick Santorum is entitled to his opinions also.

He isn’t trying to force his opinions on anyone. He is running in an election. He is showcasing his beliefs and putting them up for approval by the American people.

@UnconventionalButterfly@xanga - A mother who knowingly and wantonly kills her unborn child is a murderer. Yes that is true. But that is true regardless of whether rape is committed.

Killing the unborn child is murder.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - That Christians were the first settlers and founded America is indisputable.

Here is the first sentence of the Articles of Confederation of New England 1648: 

Whereas we all came into these parts of America with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel in purity with peace;

Here is a quote from the Mayflower Compact 1620: 

Having undertaken, for ye glorie of God, and advancement of ye christian faith and honour of our king & country…

In the Declaration of Independence the Founders invoked God three times. Within the Declation of Independence is a prayer to God for protection and success.

I want to make this CLEAR that my opinion on abortion is not in any way affected by my religion. Am I pro-life, yes…but that’s my choice and under no circumstances would I enforce MY choice onto a traumatized rape victim or anyone for that matter.  To me that seems wrong and really selfish to do.

I think the raped woman should have a choice as to want the abortion or not based on her own morals and beliefs. Not ours, not the people of America, not congress, not the senate, and not the presidents. The choice should be hers and hers ALONE.

Same thing could be said about the doctor, it should be the doctors choice based on the doctors believes on if he wants to proceed with the abortion or not. If he wants to help the woman with her choice, that’s his business. It’s also his right to say, “No, I will not help you with this.” and turn his back.

No government or religion should have the power to control an individual’s rights or choices. My point is, what gives us the right to make the choice for the victim or deny her any possible choices? To me it is selfish on our part. We all have our right to an opinion and we should just keep it to ourselves and not enforce a lifestyle change on someone because we think it is RIGHT or WRONG or IMMORAL. It’s utter bullshit..and I’m fed up with the government and religions thinking they can control everyone.

@UnconventionalButterfly@xanga - That is a false claim. And it is a false claim that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Judeo-Christianity is the most civilizing force in human history. The most heinous mass murders in history have been committed by atheists.

And they were able to accomplish this that because the ruling regimes gave relative value to human life. 

@In_Reason_I_Trust@xanga - @x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - @UnconventionalButterfly@xanga - Character assassination is what happens when someone declares themselves the loser because they have no argument.

I have done nothing to deserve this kind of treatment. I have been polite, patient and articulate. Being mocked this way by you people indicates a moral cancer that kills the civility necessary to the body politic of a self-governing republic.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga -  ”Also, wrong wrong and more wrong. America was NOT founded by Christians. Why do people think this!? I will never understand it. Our Founding Fathers did not write anywhere into the Constitution “this is a Christian nation”. Many were Deists, which essentially means they did not believe that the creator intervenes in human life. How about Article 6,Section 3 which reads “NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES” How about the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, which states “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion….”
You desperately need to educate yourself about these things before you start spouting off your opinion.”

I love you for this. Been saying this FOREVER. No one ever listens. Ahmazing.

so, i watched the video and.. wow, could you have tried to misrepresent what he said more? i know it’s in vogue to trash republicans as rightwing racist backwoods inbred oppressors of all that is good and holy, but come on, could you at least try to have a little bit of honesty and integrity when doing it? no? can’t be bothered with that? didn’t really think so. so what’s your alternative? you want to make the worst of the situation? add to the trauma of rape the trauma and possible health complications of abortion? really? so you’re on a tare because this guy when asked his views decided to introspect and look into the issue came to a conclusion that he believes is best? not good, not excellent, not great, but best; sometimes the best sucks ass, but it’s still the best so to vilify him for saying that someone should “make the best of the situation” is completely idiotic, of course you should make the best of the situation, if you aren’t trying to make the situation better, you’re making it worse.. by definition.. and that is exactly what you are endorsing even if you are too thick or too blinded by your hatred for all things republican/conservative or both to realize it. 

@Jenny_Wren@xanga - oh, this is the most annoying argument.  then who are *we* to make any decisions at all?  better to just let a “superior being” (who may or may not even exist) dictate to us, because we *believe* that he/she/it has our best interests at heart.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - what about a government that gives people freedom of choice while still preserving order?  you can’t argue with the fact that democracies give people more freedom than dictatorships.  why do you think the uprisings happened in northern africa last yr?  hint: it’s not because the people were suffering from too much freedom of choice.  oh yea, and last time i checked, separation of church and state was a founding principle of american ideology.

the thing that irks me about certain religions is their uncanny ability to reduce complex situations into absolute, childishly simplistic binaries:  good vs. evil; right vs. wrong; child = innocent, adult = sinful; life = good, death = bad, etc.  if a fetus is innocent, then by all logic, having an abortion would send it straight to heaven w/o it having to struggle thru this life and potentially sinning and going to hell, thereby doing it a favor - but i guess religion isn’t about logic, is it? 

also, if hitler’s mom had had an abortion, then the world would’ve been a better place for many, many, many people.  so no, i don’t always think, in Every situation, that life is Good and death is Bad.  we humans tend to think this way because the desire to live and survive as individuals and as a species is ingrained in our DNA thru millions of yrs of evolution.  not because some deity created us and made us Special.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - 

“Judeo-Christianity is the most civilizing force in human history. The most heinous mass murders in history have been committed by atheists.”

funny, incidentally, i just watched a documentary last nite on the crusades…

@pisces1982@xanga - The Crusades were the Christian response to the Muslim conquest of their lands. All the lands in Africa, Asia Minor and Palestine had been Christian for centuries before the Jihad swept out of Arabia on its never ending  conquest.

Also, notice that you went back centuries to find something to complain about and your complaint wasn’t even valid.

Atheists continue their rampage against civil society right here, right now. I just had three of them attempt to ruin my reputation simply because I have different opinions from them.

It’s not different. If you claim to be anti-abortion, you’re a liar if you make exceptions. Because why would you be anti-abortion unless you believed that, from the moment of conception, the fetus is a sovereign individual with the right to life? How it got there wouldn’t matter, if that’s what you truly believed.

If you say that abortion is permissible in cases of rape, what that means is that you essentially believe in punishing women who have “misbehaved” by getting pregnant when they didn’t want to raise a child.

Rick Santorum is not someone I would ever vote for, but I will say this for him: he and Ron Paul are pretty much the only consistent presidential candidates the Republicans have.

Just for the record, I am pro-life, meaning pro-existing life, meaning that I believe that the existing individual, i.e., the mother, has the right to terminate her pregnancy for whatever reason she wishes. The reason that I believe this is because I believe that you can’t sacrifice an already existing life to what amounts to a potential life.

Abortion is never gray. You either think it’s wrong, or you think it’s acceptable. Or, in the case of people who say it’s okay in certain circumstances, you really haven’t made up your mind yet and you want to please everybody.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - The Declaration of Independence was a letter. It does not set our laws. The Constitution sets our laws, and it says that we are not a Christian nation–we are a nation of free choosers. And no, we were NOT settled by Christians. The vast majority of Pilgrims were Puritans, which is not the same thing as modern day Christianity. The Puritans believed in predestination, baptism, The Lord’s Supper (NOT the Catholic ideas of the Pope, confession, etc), and marriage by civil magistrates, among other things. They also used the Geneva edition of the Bible, which is not the same Bible Christians go by today. 

Here’s some quotes for you. I have a lot of these because I did research on this topic for a religion class I took a couple semesters ago at my university.
From JOHN ADAMS:“This would be the best of all possible
worlds, if there were no religion in it”

“God is an essence that we know nothing
of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal
science in the world.”

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient
cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for creeds,
confessions, oaths, doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery
that we find in Christianity”

From THOMAS JEFFERSON:

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Jefferson even created his own Jefferson Bible, removing verses dealing with virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, claims to divinity, etc. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Jefferson also claims in his private journal that GEORGE WASHINGTON said he “no more believed of that system [Christianity]…”

So tell me, how can you refute these historical facts? This is the last comment I have on this matter because if you refuse to be swayed by legitimate, irrefutable, historical FACT, then you are clinging tightly and blindly to a faith that you do not fully understand. I’m not telling you to drop your religion, I’m not being a bitch, I’m telling you that you are FACTUALLY wrong and you need to educate yourself about history and ALIGN IT with your personal religious beliefs. I am not mocking you. I am not telling you God is a lie or that you must believe what I believe. Believe whatever you want, but please EDUCATE yourself about it first. You can believe in religion and still understand basic historical facts such as these. 

@Xbeautifully_broken_downX@xanga - Thank you It genuinely makes me sad how our education system is so broken that people believe things that are easily disproved as untrue. That’s not a dig at anyone for believing in religion. I don’t think people who believe in religion are stupid. Well, not all of them anyway. I don’t generalize people that way. I just wish more people would educate themselves and figure out how historical fact aligns with their personal beliefs. The world would be a much better place.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - The Declaration of Independence was a formal statement of rebellion, after which, the signers became hunted men. And included in the Declaration are prayers to God Almighty for protection and success.

Read the Declaration and see for yourself.

The Declaration of Independence is the philosophical foundation for the Constitution of United States. According to which the Supreme Court struck down the recent attempt to make rape a federal crime. Rape laws are state laws, not federal laws.

Thomas Jefferson was a Christian without a doubt. His bible simply showed that stripped of its faith elements the Bible contains a great collection of ethics and moral teachings. And quotes you are using to try to show that Jefferson was not Christian, actually show the same type of thinking that Pope John Paul II put into his encyclical, “Faith and Reason”. 

Jefferson abhorred Christian faith unguided by reason.

Atheists and leftists deliberately redefine Jefferson’s own motives to make it look like our most influential Founder was a Godless anti-Christian. Which is false.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga -

 Just FYI, the Puritans’ theology, soteriology, and Christology are distinctly matching with modern Christianity’s–at least the evangelical sect. I currently go to an evangelical baptist church that believes in predestination, baptism, the Lord’s supper, and marriage by civil magistrates. And so do many, many other churches in my area. In fact, many Christian authors such as J.I. Packer, John Piper, and Martin Lloyd Jones site the Puritans as being the major influence in modern true evangelicalism.

Also, I had to look this up–but I was pretty sure that whatever translation the Puritans used of the Bible would only be distinctly different from the Vulgate, not the common people’s translation. I found that the only major differences between it and the King James translation was that it was essentially a study bible, maybe the first ever. It was broken up into verses and chapters, and included commentary in the margins to help the less educated understand the overarching themes. 
(here’s a source: http://www.apuritansmind.com/puritan-worship/the-geneva-bible/)

In conclusion–the first settlers, while not all of them were so passionately Christian, were amongst the most passionately Christian people in history. Just look at John Bunyan (who wrote Pilgrim’s Progress), John Owen, and Jonathan Edwards (he came later, though). Actually, Jonathan Edwards is a good example of the immediate (relatively, by generation) effects of the Puritan mindset.

@pisces1982@xanga - There is a right and wrong to deciding when to end a life. Usually, no one who is an innocent is allowed to be put to death. The argument by many people is that that rule changes if a woman might be emotionally distressed until the child is born. Why would that change whether or not a child is allowed to live? Certainly, it is not something that I wish would happen. But those are no grounds at all to allow or disallow a life to end. The possibility of a person’s bad feelings have never been a deciding factor in such a serious matter before. And they shouldn’t be now.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You of all people talking of civility! BWAHAHAAHAHAHA! You’re a joke, at best.

Life begins at birth. Human beings have believed this for the past several million years with no problems, and I see no reason why we shouldn’t continue to believe it.. The only reason religious people want to believe otherwise is to give them control over womens’ bodies. They prove their ideas about life beginning at conception with science, which is kind of ironic when you consider that if these people had their way since about 1600, there would be no ultrasounds, no medicine, none of the technology they use to *prove* when life begins. In fact, we’d still be thinking the earth was the center of the fucking universe.

From all these comments alone you guys can see how delicate of an issue this is. Obviously this was known when the article was written that it would be a touchy subject because the issue in and of itself is so personal and controversial. Nonetheless, I think it’s an important topic to be discussed.

With that said, I appreciate everybody  voicing their opinions, and talking so passionately about what they believe. I think it does everybody good to hear the beliefs of those who they may not agree with. I think it’s important to hear both sides of an issue..even if you don’t always agree with what’s being said!

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - Totally agree. On that note, SOME people should recognize that as Diests, the FF’ers believed in a creator or sorts…. Just not, necessarily, the protestant Christian God, that people so quickly refer to.

Also, another point you may like to add to your argument is that, the protestants who came over from England were freeing religious persecution by the King and the Church of England…so why would they come over and institute another world in which it was possible for the same thing to happen? The goal was to get this new world as far away from that realm of thinking as possible. Religious freedom…not domination, was the goal. 
But, people ignore that too. XD

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I notice you don’t address John Adams’ quotes at all. It’s entirely possible that either one of us is taking any of these quotes out of context, but I’m done with this argument. I’ve read documents written by the Founding Fathers, done research on the topic, and I interpret what I’ve found to show that America was not founded by Christians. If you don’t interpret it the same way, I’m sorry, but there are facts that state otherwise and I’m sorry you don’t understand them that way. America is not by definition a Christian nation. It is a nation where people were (and are) welcome to be free from religious persecution, to practice whatever religion they chose without fear of attack. 

@Xbeautifully_broken_downX@xanga - Of course they do. You’re completely right. Sadly, there’s no point in arguing with people who refuse to understand history as it is recorded. Sigh. The more I’m exposed to religion the more I hate it. I’ll take my God without being basted in structure, politics, judgment, and corruption, thanks.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - I believe that makes you a semi-deist. 

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - You might enjoy this.

@x__RainOnHerParade@xanga - Adams = Jefferson. Their problem was religion devoid of reason. And I am taking nothing out of context.

The Founders understood that religion was necessary for good governance and therefore should be part of a good education.

See Article III of the Northwest Ordinance of 1787:  

Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. 

Also, Thanksgiving was created by the US Congress for the specific purpose of giving the American people a special day to give thanks to God.

THIS MAN IS DISGUSTING.

if he ever became president I would become a canadian.  Men have no right to have any veiw on how a woman should deal with a situation like that.  Men arent blessed with female traits, anatomy, or emotions so their opionions are worthless when it comes to something they don’t (and couldn’t) understand.

Yeah, that’s what I think I should do. Just forget about it and make the best of a bad situation.

I’ll forget that I was violated, terrorized and physically hurt. I’ll forget that the rapist may have given me an STD in addition to knocking me up with his disgusting seed. I’ll forget that I had no choice of when, where or how I was attacked and the helpless feeling that goes along with it. I’ll forget how filthy I remember feeling when it happened to me. I’ll forget the slimy, disgusting feeling of carrying the child of the person who violated me with such violence.

Most importantly I’ll forget how limited my resources are right now and that I can neither afford another child financially or emotionally. I’ll forget that the daily struggle to raise two autistic children will be made more complicated because Mr. Santorum thinks I need to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. I’ll forget that my last two pregnancies resulted in children with a learning disability and that my third child was even more affected by it than my second and that any other children I have are practically guaranteed to be even more affected than that. I’ll forget that I have physical issues that make it unlikely that I will even be able to carry another child safely to term and that I have a uterine condition that makes it almost certain that I will bleed to death at some point during the process, leaving the children I already have motherless.

I’ll forget all of that because what is most important to the GOP, Mr. Santorum and people who think like them, is the life of the fetus. All else, especially the mother, is secondary and therefore, unimportant. Mothers are expendable and their lives worthless.

I appreciate, however, the ability to remember who does NOT belong in the white house. For that I do owe Mr. Santorum a sincere thank you.

politics and religion should never be combined. ever. 

@Xx_SCRiBBLY@xanga - Hmmm. That’s interesting. 

What a fucking idiot.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I dont believe she actually said what her position on abortion was…. If you dont want one, don’t get one.  

@desiredperfection3@xanga - This is what the OP claims, in her own words:

While Santorum’s view may be shared by many people, asking them to accept God’s gift is not only taking the choice away from the woman, but forcing his religious views on her.

Santorum is doing no such thing. The claim that he is “forcing his religious views” on women is false.

Women, especially feminists, won’t vote for him.

@Hinase@xanga - agreed

What a fucking douche. 

i’d like to see that guy raped

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - as such a devoted Christian following its doctrine, let’s send all the rape victim’s children to you.  You can be the solution.  If you decline and let those babies die, it’ll be immoral!

@P753159@xanga - Your solution to this problem is to wish rape on another human being and death on an unborn innocent.

And then you try and justify it by presenting an imaginary scenario that defines me as being immoral.That so many people think this way does not bode well for our civilization.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You are clearly missing the point. Your mythology doesn’t get a say in what someone does with their body. So, unless you can come up with a point that isn’t tied to the superstition of ignorant desert dwellers twothousand years ago, then you don’t really have anything to add.
Separation of church and state means your myths don’t get a say in what happens to me.

@mrben@xanga - Religion is not mythology. The very values you hold dear are but a bastardization and a degradation of Christian values.

All great civilizations rose up around religion. And most notably, the greatest mass murders in history were committed by people who thought religion was myth.

Christian civilization is the only civilization in human history where human life was deemed precious. That is a supreme accomplishment.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Wrong if anyone didn’t ask for it they shouldn’t have to go through that, especially if the child birth threaten the mother in any way your moral beliefs are sick and wrong.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - at what point did I wish rape on another human being?

i’m saying it’s easy for someone not in the situation to tell others what to do and be all judgemental and righteous, knowing that you will not yourself face such circumstance.  Notice religious fanatics who push for anti-abortion are all male?  If you are so holy and devoted, why don’t you take the burden off the victims and serve God even more?  Seeing those comments, you are not convincing anyone with your argument.

@P753159@xanga - Your words:

i’d like to see that guy raped

That’s you wishing that someone would rape Rick Santorum.

@Jenny_Wren@xanga - did you read the rest of my comment about oversimplification of life = good, death = bad?

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - so just because it happened centuries ago means it doesn’t matter anymore?  seeing as how your christ lived 2,000yrs ago, you of all people should not be saying, “because it happened a long time ago, it doesn’t matter now.”  if you want to live in a time when christianity and politics were combined, then go back to the medieval ages, during the height of christian fervor, and experience the civilization then – the inquisition, witch hunts, calls to holy war against the evil unbelievers, etc.  if you kno anything about history at all, you can’t deny that christianity has had a history of bloodshed in the name of god, which is anything but a civilizing influence.  if anything has brought enlightenment and civility, it’s the decline of christianity and the rise of atheistic science (which, oh yea, the church tried to stifle once evidence contrary to the bible was unearthed – if you’re so educated, what did the church do to galileo? why do people today still insist on teaching creationism even tho there is no proof?? – and no, just because people a long time ago wrote it down in a book that we now call the bible, Doesn’t Mean It’s True).

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - oh right, i forgot about that. because i said it as an exaggeration to put things in perspective that the line didn’t stay in my mind long after. my apologies for that particular line, but that does not detract my argument.

@P753159@xanga - Your argument is to use government as enforcer and financier of people’s profligate sex lives.

Such enforcement is raw tyranny and such financing requires institutionalized theft and sacking of privately held wealth.

The Christian answer to this dilemma is moral instruction which teaches virtue and responsibility for one’s self.  Since the Christian solution preserves freedom from the tyranny and slavery that your solution requires, the Christian solution is the most just.

The fact that you could blythly wish rape on someone, forget that you said such a thing and then make excuses shows categorically that you lack a moral compass with which to guide your thinking.

@pisces1982@xanga - America was formed with Christianity as an integral part of its politics. Morality must guide politics. If not, than immorality guides politics.

One of the aims of good government is justice. The concept of justice and good can only be viewed within the framework of objective morality.

Judeo-Christian morality is the gold standard for all of mankind.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - what part of my argument is “to use government as enforcer and financier of people’s profligate sex lives.”?  I’m saying that it’s so easy for you to make moral judgement of how other people should live their life when you are so distant of the circumstance that perhaps you can voluntarily participate in saving those children but taking those rape victim’s offspring under your care.

Your criticism of everyone here is solely on what is considered moral and immoral.  Understanding that morality is socially constructed, your statements have no influence on me, as I do not feel obligated to conform to your moral standards.

@P753159@xanga - I haven’t made any moral judgement about how people should live their lives.

I have demonstrated that government programs are immoral because they require super large scale stealing in order to finance them. And when one group of people makes another work for them without recompense, that’s slavery which is also immoral.

I have brought up Christian morality because it teaches the critical importance of liberty, virtue and that stealing is wrong.

All of you here arguing for government financing of your sex project reject Christianity. So it’s no surprise that you don’t see the immorality of what you are proposing. Namely that public finance of people’s sex lives requires stealing money on a large scale in order to finance it.

this is going to turn into (if it hasn’t already) a bullshit abortion discussion.

you are either pro choice, or anti choice….stating your opinion isn’t going to change anyone else’s so shut the fuck up already.

“asking them to accept God’s gift is not only taking the choice away from the woman, but forcing his religious views on her”

Apparently you don’t understand the definition of “force.” His having an opinion that you don’t approve of in no way “forces” his religious views on you or anyone else.  People have opinions that you didn’t issue to them.  Get over it.

I like Santorum because he makes for great material on The Daily Show.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - What you/Catholics think is immoral may be moral to someone else, even another Catholic. Everyone’s views of morals are different, thus your argument in this case is invalid.

@P753159@xanga - I agree and pretty much said the same thing in the second part of your reply.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - “Judeo-Christian morality is the gold standard for all of mankind.”

For a white westerner, sure. Ask the rest of the world what they think, and don’t be surprised if they name their own religions or morals.

@imperfect_smash@xanga - Unless there is an objective view of right and wrong, there is no morality. 

That is, if each one of us determines our own morality then there is no morality because no person’s morality is better than that of any other person.

The United States was found settled and founded by Christians. Christian values are integral to our culture and law. So when we look to ethics and morals we look to Christianity. That’s the way it’s been in the West for centuries and centuries.

The idea that morality is relative comes from atheists who when left to their own devices have been responsible for the greatest mass murders in history.

@imperfect_smash@xanga - Judeo-Christian values are normative for all mankind. Our Western Civilization is the gold stand for all other cultures.

Nowhere on earth at no time in history has human life ever be regarded as more than dirt, except here in the West where it is precious.

The idea that the unborn are expendable and disposable is a throwback to the barbarism and misery that has been mankind’s lot for almost all his history.

Rape is a horrible thing to go through, I do not think he is saying that it isn’t.  It’s horrible through and through whether it results in a pregnancy or not.  However, what else is one supposed to say to someone who went through it and what to do next?  That it’s okay, you’re a victim so you’re allowed to down your life however way you wish [I'm still coming from whether a pregnancy came of it or not]?  No, the person who is living after being raped still has a life worth living, still has opportunities to make the best out of a bad situation.  Now, with sensitivity, it’s probably not the best thing to say to someone right after the fact.  

On the part of Pro-lifers, I think if one is to be pro-life, one should seek to be pro-life in all situations- otherwise, who is supreme enough to say where to ultimately draw the line?  I couldn’t do it.  It’s a tough position to take right now.  
In this particular scenario of a rape pregnancy, you will not find that every mother whom has carried out such a pregnancy absolutely regrets giving birth to the baby.  Some will, but not all will.  And that is the decision Santorum is speaking to.  
Rape is tough to come away from.  Having a baby because of it doesn’t change the situation.  Aborting a baby because of it doesn’t change the situation either.  It’s a decision to make, a difficult one.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - have you not read any of my comments?  did you read my comment about government, separation of church and state, and overly simplified binaries? – ie. the comment before my aside on the crusades, which you randomly seized upon instead?  btw, i only said that i watched a documentary on the crusades, in which christians performed all manner of killing and atrocities.  i’m not saying the muslims didn’t do the same – but the christians did as well, making them no more morally superior nor civilized than their enemies.

there is no such thing as objective morality.  morality by its very nature is opinion, and hence, subjective.

“Judeo-Christian morality is the gold standard for all of mankind.” – this Opinion is a very self-centered one, ignoring the perceptions, thoughts, and feelings of other cultures/religions and other peoples – which is exactly what has justified the christian murder and oppression of non-believers, from the second christians took power in rome, down through the centuries to manifest destiny and the american enslavement of blacks.  that is the true reality of christian “morality”.

@pisces1982@xanga - Humanity has known that the truth is objective for thousands of years. 

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - really? then why do so many people believe in subjectivity?  are they not human?

@pisces1982@xanga - People believe that truth is subjective because their worlds revolve only around themselves, because they are unaware of the results of reasoned thought. 

That truth is objective is self-evident.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I was saying that the op did not say what her (meaning the op) views were on abortion… not anything about santorum.  Must have been some misunderstanding there.

Though, calling a child “god’s gift” and saying that a woman (religious affiliation unknown) who is raped should accept “gods gift” of a child is kinda imposing his religious views; since “God” is a religious figure and if the audience is made up of atheists they are not going to see a child as “gods gift”.

Frankly, I think all politicians should just get over the abortion issue.  Roe v Wade will very likely never be overturned and if by some horrible turn of events it did… abortions would still occur.  They would just go back to the streets and women would be dying all over again.  How bout they put their anti-abortion efforts to sex education in schools and prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You are horribly mistaken.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - i think he’s being demonized for his callous disregard of the unbelievable trauma of being raped.  which is especially frustrating considering that he will never have to experience becoming pregnant, much less becoming pregnant from a sexual experience that occurred without his consent.  you can feel however you want about abortion, but for you to act “holier than thou” and like this is such a clear-cut issue when you have never been in that situation is just…ugh.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - here in the west life is precious?!  why do we have the death penalty?  why are we so keen on war?

@corporatecrow@xanga - “Callous disregard” is your judgmental, harsh, demonizing characterization of a man of good character who disagrees with the primary sacrament of your religion.

Your religion is progressivism and the sacrament is abortion. It is sacrelige for anyone to be critical of any aspect of your religion, especially one of its sacraments.

Rick Santorum is a loving family man. 

@corporatecrow@xanga - The death penalty is the dispensation of justice to cold blooded killers. There is nothing wrong with making someone who ruthlessly snatched away all of the tomorrows of an innocent person, also forfeit all of his own tomorrows.

Justice has a very simple aspect to it: equity. The scales of Justice require balance.

Abortion, on the other hand is brutal wanton murder of the innocent purely out of convenience. There is no justice in that yet abortion, cold blooded murder of the innocent, you consider to be an inviolable right.

“We” are not keen on war. That is a false premise.

@imperfect_smash@xanga - Making a claim without supporting it with some kind of reasoning is no claim at all.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - what? ur statement hardly makes any logical sense.  are you talking about The Truth or about “moral truth”?  coz i thought our discussion was about moral “truth”.  as i’ve stated before, you should not be one to be talking about self-centered behavior and reasoned thought with your previous sweeping statement about judeo-christianity being the beacon for all humanity.  as for moral “truth”, it is obvious that different cultures/religions/peoples/individuals have different views on what is “right” and what is “wrong”, including people who believe in the subjectivity of morality - to ignore the validity of their views in favor of your own is what is self-centered.

btw, morality isn’t some Real cosmic force that’s out there, ordained by God.  morals evolved as part of human society to help us function as a social species.  therefore, usually the “bad” acts are the ones that harm others (ie. stealing, murdering, raping, etc.) while the “good” acts help other people (ie. charity, healing, selflessness, etc.) - these perceptions of morality help us to live with each other, but they’re not the “truth”.

- sometimes, i wonder if you are for real, or just making these crazy comments to provoke others because you’re bored.

@pisces1982@xanga - The truth about things is self-evident or understood through reasoning. The truth about Jesus is revelation from God.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. That all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That is from the Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence.

So understanding that there is a God and that there is actual, objective right and wrong is reasonable. You folks who say that the truth is relative and that morality is a matter of opinion are the ones being irrational and illogical.

@pisces1982@xanga - I think he’s forreal and it’s scary. People like this is what helped fuel religious wars. I mean, he’s attacking us like we aren’t even a part of his religious community. I can praise the Lord and not be a bigot, jeez.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - obviously, The Truth is not self-evident, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this debate.

i’ve said it before, so i’ll say it again – just because people wrote stuff down a long time ago, Doesn’t Make It True. – whether these people be the authors of the bible or the constitution.  if you want to go by the constitution and law, then abortion is legal and you should let others carry on w/ their legal right w/o throwing moral stones at them.  at the end of the day, law is a collection of the people’s, or the writers’, opinions on morality.  the people’s opinions on the morality of abortion changed, so the law changed.  simple as that.

the distinction btwn fact and opinion is easy (or so i thought):

FACT: apples grow on trees

OPINION:  apples taste great!

FACT:  she had an abortion

OPINION: abortion is wrong

facts are backed by evidence – opinions are not.  there is no evidence for god or the truth of morality.  therefore, to tell a woman not to have an abortion because You think it’s wrong, is the same as telling people not to eat apples because You think apples taste bad.  personally, i think it’s wrong for people to have too many children (overpopulation issues and draining our limited resources), but i don’t go around trying to pass laws against having many children.  the difference between us is that i know my opinions are just my opinions, while you think your opinions are the Absolute Truth.

@pisces1982@xanga - Human beings are not prone to knowing the truth automatically. That the truth is available to by means of reason does not mean that everyone will automatically reason it out.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - finally, we agree on something.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - False. On all counts. There is no difference between Thor, Jesus, and Batman. If you can come up with one- please enlighten the rest of us.

When you say all great civilizations rose up around religion you are (again) missing the point. Certainly religion was a useful tool in the early days of humanity to unify people. But it was our first attempt at explaining the world and thus, our worst. The usefulness of the myths people created thousands of years ago has run out.
To say christians are the only group that deems life precious is just nonsense. Your myth is founded in human sacrifice. That is hardly acting as if life is precious. Your mythological text clearly states that it is ok to murder people who don’t share your skydaddy. Here is one link it took less than five seconds of research to come up with http://nlt.scripturetext.com/psalms/137.htm This verse talks about how smashing babies heads on rocks is something terrific.

Christianity is a myth just like every other religion on earth. It is just as barbaric and ignorant as the people who crafted it from their imagination. It is just as silly and indefensible as a belief that Xenu is the cause of all your sorrow. And it is just as dishonest as Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard have proven to be.

I believe in an America where people are allowed to be wrong, so I will never challenge your right to believe nonsense. However, I also believe that nonsense should be exposed to the debunking powers of fact and the shaming power of ridicule.

@mrben@xanga - Allow me to explain the difference between Thor and Jesus.

Jesus was an actual person whose ministry was witnessed by 1000s. The greatest civilization in history rose up around his teachings.

Thor is part of the pantheon of Norse gods.  And that’s it.

If you are incapable of seeing the difference between an actual historical figure who changed human history and a Norse god, than any further conversation is useless.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Witnessed by who? All accounts of his teachings, actions, even his very existence are hearsay. I haven’t seen actual proof of this individual walking the Earth at any point in history. All mentions of this figure were written much after he was supposed to have existed. Again, I ask you to show me the difference between Jesus, Batman, and Thor.
I contend that you can’t do it. All three “exist” in the same way. They were made up, and the fantasy accounts of their actions were repeated again and again. Just because you choose to believe one of these myths is true does not constitute evidence.
So, show me some evidence as to why jesus is more likely to be real than Gilgamesh. I can recite details of Harry Potter’s life, but those details do not equal evidence.

Also, which civilization are you claiming “rose up around his teachings?” Further, what defines your unnamed civilization as “greatest?”

There are a lot of claims being made, and no evidence backing them. Just because you can type something does not mean it is so. In fact, without evidence to back up your rambling, it makes it very likely that it isn’t so.

@mrben@xanga - Like I said, any further discussion is useless. That Jesus was a real person is accepted by the academy.

To invalidate reality you simple create an arbitrary standard to suit your purpose. Atheists do that to everything except themselves. Which relegates what your have to say to hurricane force circular thinking.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - It’s only useless if you keep avoiding answering the question. What academy are you referring to? I am completely open to new information on this topic. If you can provide me with some, I will gladly read it.
But this also misses the point slightly. I’m not so much concerned with you proving something to me as I am wondering what the difference is to you. I mean, what standard are you using when you express such certainty about Jesus but not about Thor? What proved the difference to you? I’m not saying to is going to prove anything to me, I think it is likely we have different standards for evidence.

My standards are not, however, arbitrary. They are quite simple and clear. In this case I am stating that hearsay alone does not constitute proof of anything. It’s the same reason (I’m making an assumption here, forgive me if I give you too much credit) you don’t believe in urban myths. Just because someone says something is true does not make it so. There must be additional information beyond a story that happened to someone’s friend once found a mouse in their Coke bottle. In the same way that sending your money to every Nigerian Prince who asks for it is a terrible idea- Believing a story simply because the person who told it to you was very emphatic about it’s truth is a terrible idea.

If I can clarify my standard of evidence better, just let me know where I am being arbitrary or vague. 

@mrben@xanga - That you don’t know basic history means that there is no common ground upon which to have a discussion.

@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - So in order to have “common ground” I have to come over to your way of thinking and just accept all your tacit assumptions? Wow.
Spoken like a true republican.

@mrben@xanga - To have a discussion agreement is not necessary. In fact, discussions are usually initiated because of disagreement.

What is needed is a common base of information. If you don’t accept that Jesus was a real historical figure or know anything about Western Civilization or how it came about, then you and I don’t share the same base of knowledge. 

What I know about Western Civilization comes from both the Catholic Church’s account of history and reputable secular scholarship. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church absorbed the secular scholarship of antiquity and has been teaching it for at least the last 1000 years.

Regardless of the intent, someone who can dismiss the traumatic experience of rape by saying “deal with it” is just gonna come off insensitive.